Have you found out about narcissists and sociopaths? How about a psychopath or cluster B? what are the differences and how can you tell who you are dealing with? Today I interviewed Mary Ann Glynn and she answers that question for us.
Mary Ann Glynn, LCSW, CHT is a licensed clinical social worker with a full-time private practice in central New Jersey. She has used her EMDR certification extensively in trauma work for 15 years, along with hypnotherapy and mindfulness techniques.
Working with trauma led her to develop Mind Warrior™ app – a therapeutic tool for managing emotional, substance, and trauma triggers with mindful tracking and empowered resourcing. In recent years Mary Ann has turned her clinical attention to helping intimate partners in relationships with low-conscience individuals popularly termed “narcissists, sociopaths, psychopaths”. In response to this growing need, she created a website and offers services which include individual therapy, a live online chat support group, and a weekly live support group in New Jersey. The website has been instrumental in getting support groups started throughout and outside of the US.
Mary Ann is part of Lovefraud’s Continuing Education program for professionals and lay persons. She has been interviewed on internet radio shows on these subjects. Mary Ann is the author of The Secret Mind of Trevor Curtis, an adolescent adventure-fantasy novel about an academically-challenged boy who problem is overcome in an unusual and mysterious way.
Transcription:
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Hi there. This is Tracy and today. I have a very special Guest star
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Her name is Maryanne glenn and she is from New Jersey, and I’m gonna let her tell you a little bit about herself
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Okay, hello, everyone nice to be here tracy. Thank you
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Yes, I’m a licensed clinical social worker in New Jersey, which is a kind of psychotherapist
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You know there are different kinds of like as therapists one might be called
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psyChologist one like equals counselor one might be called Social worker bus world Clinical therapist
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And I have a private practice in New Jersey which I’ve had for about
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15 15 years and I had you I do a lot with trauma work
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Emdr and different things like that
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Which led me to create an app called my warrior
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Which is helps with Mindful connection and feeling from emotional triggers trauma our relationship triggers flashbacks?
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Addiction Triggers and things like that
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In the last Few years, I’ve turned my attention to people been in
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destructive relationships in particular with people who are popularly termed
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narcissists sociopaths psychopaths and
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you know there’s a particular as
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Everyone probably knows
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Listening to this is if a particular kind of destructiveness that happens in relationships with these particular kinds of people
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And there’s not a lot of help out there, so what I like
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We have a support group an online support group
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And we’ve been instrumental in starting support groups around country and outside the country because obviously
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Really needed. It’s a very isolating experience
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Yeah, I’m a degree at it. That’s how we met was when I was going to start my meetup group
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I reached out to meet up leaders and Marianne was one of the first ones. I spoke with she’s so helpful giving me ideas for
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Having you know what I can do at meetups as well as she has created a booklet
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That is guidelines for starting a meet-up and there are little guideline rules about
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company
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confidentiality and
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Just being kind to each other that I read at the beginning of every one of my me I
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Think it is like good to set the rules and it helps
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We have a little control if people tend to go off on a tangent
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I could bring them back in by you know easily using those rules if somebody’s getting crazy so Mm-Hmm
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A Netbook is for not professionals necessarily for anyone who has an interest in starting
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Yeah, okay, right Tracy and you said it and the desire well
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I do sell it now if someone has a financial hardship
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I will just mail the document to them and put it together any way they like okay?
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Well, well, I think that maybe we’ll put a link down below
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In the comments were how to contact you and if anybody is interested I got an email this morning from someone that
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Is interested in starting a group so I?
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Director over here. Oh great today, we’re going to talk about some of the confusion between the terms
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sociopath
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Narcissus psychopath Cluster B
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because this is Marianne specialty so um
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Why don’t you start off with which whatever one you want to tell us about it, right?
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I get that question asked a lot you know
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What was the difference between them and I think I live in a certain amount of Youtube videos and people kind of trying to?
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Decipher between what’s what and their different kind of perspectives on that, so I’ll give you the clinical process
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You know I think people can to see the words in whatever context they learn them like
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Antisocial if you’re a clinician and also the word antisocial sounds like someone that goes against normal societal norms
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You know they might be a criminal element
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And then you know there there might be irresponsible or con men that kind of thing
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That’s what I think of and that’s all free you know fairly appropriate
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You know these are people that get in trouble with the law a lot they might lie in
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And have a false identity all these kinds of things that are also associated people associate narcissist, right?
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and so she passed but
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It’s not necessarily true number. I mean antisocial personality
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Is not the same as Narsimha Narshall isn’t the same as for deline personality?
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You know what I’m talking about is close to be personality disorders right not everyone is familiar with them Mm-hmm
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Does most people might not even know what a personality disorder is okay?
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Personality do you want to know numbers now? I do just huggers
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Also, there’s histrionics effin on the personality disorder in the cluster B cluster
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Yeah, personality disorders are kind of a very dysfunctional way of operating in life
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That are what they call ego-syntonic meaning that a person is comfortable with it
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So they’re not likely to change it even though. It’s dysfunctional and it kind of operates in all areas of their life
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it’s
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There in their very kind of resistance
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ingrained things
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They’re not diagnosed until a person is an adult okay?
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Now there’s a little bit of difference there like some personality disorders who have the potential to change?
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some
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Midmost not okay really depends, but as far as you know narcissist sociopaths and psychopaths
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They might blend into something out different. They might like crossed over from one personality to another and disorder
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With different traits, and that’s why there’s so much confusion because there’s really not one
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That that meets that gets the bill there’s really not one personality can say
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For all your the people who are watching this and have been amis relationships like some have some antisocial trade show some might have been
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You know a lying
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About their identity or fleecing their partner like a conman kind of thing
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That that you know people would associate with being you know maybe associate as enough narcissist
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Somebody might be very conventional you know but very destructive also an abusive most people would see that more like a narcissist
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Psychopathy is a term that people associate with serial cast and you know usually something more extreme right? Yeah, okay?
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Now I mean just just quickly
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I don’t want to get too detailed who probably confusing but an antisocial
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Personality disorder could fit the bills or one of these people were talking not always
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There was research done initially by Robert hare. You know who is irritable without conscience or the first guys who?
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Researched psychopaths and he felt and he used primarily people who were incarcerated
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And he found that only 25% of these was incarcerated or psychopaths
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okay, I mean now a psychopath is someone who’s defined primarily as
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Callous unemotional and low to no conscience
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okay, okay, so
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So some antisocial personality disorders are like that, but most are not narcissistic
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personality disorders because of the Lack of Empathy which is prominent in
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NTD
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Will almost always make their relationship with them partial or destructive in a way because their partner will be?
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Sacrificed to keep their image of themself
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Is the way they need it to be right and I know a lot of people have experienced that primarily history onex
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That’s something you don’t see very often with someone who’s very traumatic, but yes very manipulative and Borderline
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someone who’s very emotional
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Overwhelmed by their emotions in fact but are typically someone who might be a domestic-violence
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Someone’s in some domestic violence customer might be abusive, but they may not last conscious
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They may see in a borderline personality fear abandonment
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So that’s what might be
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Operating someone who might be in that domestic violence cycle where they do if you soon
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Then come back and be pretend to end or you’ll abandoned and that that kind of thing course that’s destroyed, too
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But those people can be helped
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Ok now, I’m sure you’re totally confused
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Even you know before I’ve heard a lot of those but yeah ok is it making sense so far absolutely ok?
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Now the way I see what we’re talking about is not really none of these personalities
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Actually in fact when they were making the DSM-5 a Few years ago. They were the
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revised version of the diagnostic statistical manual
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Hmm health professionals they had a category of anti-social that was the more callous unemotional
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low conscience
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And then they had another category for the one who’s more of the one that we still have which was the more kind of irresponsible
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impulsive
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You know breaking a law kind of person?
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But they trashed the callous one and just went stayed with one that they have erection now that other one really
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describes more what we’re talking about, and that would be someone who’s really those of it’s the
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Criteria for psychopathy
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so what we’re talking about here are people who would be described as
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Far as research and clearly as a psychopath all about that name just kind of reads
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You know someone who’s really horrible and evil
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and I mean I think I picture the murderer there where right exactly, but actually a
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Psych psychopath and psychopathy is described as someone whose callous unemotional
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Low to no conscience and to me, that’s the core
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what drives these people that were talking about whether we called a narcissist whether we’ve all sociopath, you call them antisocial or
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psychopath and
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this is why because
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the callous unemotional
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Points to someone who is not able to feel ok so
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Someone who isn’t really able to feel their own emotion right right connected from their own emotion
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I can go in another whole
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interview about why that is
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They’re going to lack empathy in other words if you can’t feel emotion
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You’re going to be able to feel for someone else right ok that comes from a connection attached, right?
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To your own emotion and that amazing to Detach and connect other people off
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So when you have a lack of empathy, then you’ve got a big pop
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good relationship
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That’s why a lot of times
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The you know these these partners. We can see them as like just wonderful on the outside
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You know may be generous friendly?
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Because our me been very successful blah blah charming
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But in a relationship and relationships involves the need for empathy because if you have a conflict
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you know in a relationship or your
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Partner is expressing some
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dissatisfaction if you don’t get past just
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Being defensive you know everyone usually defensive at the beginning, but at some point you say oh
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I think I get it when I did that made you feel like that
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I didn’t mean it
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But I’m sorry you know you have to have those kinds of skills have a successful relationship
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Now if you lack output that you can never do that if you lack empathy and if you have a need to
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See yourself in a particular way
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you will never end up in relationship is going to be threatened, so the ultimately threatening to your
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Original image, right, so that’s that’s going to provoke a lot of anger abusing the stuff that we see with
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Narcissism or whatever and
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The Lack of Empathy also produces lack of conscience conscience is based on attachment
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Rights conscience is based on attachment conscience is actually formed by a successful
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Attachment early on to your caretaker. That’s how conscience is formed the brain
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Learned how to connect and feel good things in connection with other people
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it develops in the brain if that doesn’t happen you could have a person who’s cold and unable to – that’s just one of the
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parts that can contribute to a person like this, so
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It took someone lacks conscience like if I could hurt you and not feel anything for it
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I could do all kinds of things to you and never feel remorse to never be able to have
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honesty about myself never be able to have inside of I and
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That’s why these people never change
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Okay, so those most basic traits
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Lack of Empathy Lack of Conscience are
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At the core and what I also see in these people. I think this comes from partly there
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Brand is that the rewards driven?
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Hmm
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Consequence, they’re not really worried about consequences usually or they think they can get away with things?
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so they’re not like really worried about it, so
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they’re in there, and so they seem to be rewards rhythm and
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Didn’t die
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I don’t really even like saying this something you know things would get any control and the other thing is they are all narcissistic
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okay, so they’re a
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psychopaths or narcissistic
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sociopath
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antisocial personality and narcissistic person I mean
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Narcissism seems to be a core trait of people that don’t have empathy much does that make sense yeah?
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Because I have this image. I mean the whole point is to keep this kind of blameless flawless image of themselves
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uh-Huh, and
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You said Reward ribbon yeah that like
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The supply that we give them whether it’s sex were
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Yes, anything if the supply is the reward for that. I had never get that way. That’s pretty cool, right?
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nice
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So that’s kind of the way. That’s my theory and
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It’s also you know. I’m just tying together different bits of research and things that I’ve hired, so
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that’s what seems to be at the core, and I just want to make a distinction like
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You know a lot of times people will say that you know I think I would a narcissist okay?
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Based on what I’ve read online which you know, but a lot of people can have treats
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People we all have some trace of lots of these thing
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but the difference would be the lack of
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emphasize I see behavior over time that you see this a lack of empathy and lack of Collagen, but yet this person is has a
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personality disorder Narcis personality disorder or psychopathy
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But I have to make sure that that’s true
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It can be mistaken someone thinks they’re great or likes attention doesn’t
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Automatically make them anarse if someone has an addiction they’re going to act without conscience
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They’re going to lie. They’re going to do anything. They need to do to keep your addiction
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They’re usually you nipple ative
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You know all that stuff?
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So you have to kind of someone has an addiction doesn’t necessarily mean they they’re like that because without the addiction
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They might be very thick
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and like I said
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domestic domestic violence cycles aren’t always somebody who has
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narcissistic personality disorder or Lack of conscience
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So if someone was to come in a couple were to come into you
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Okay, what I have heard is that
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They can charm the therapist
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Mm-Hmm hide their behaviors because they know what you’re looking for
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exactly
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exactly
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love fraud did a survey on
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People sorry people’s experiences with therapists boy
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It was bad
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especially if people went in as a couple most of the time the therapists did not recognize it or
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If they did recognize it was way down the line
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because
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probably a lot of people could relate to this and I’ve heard these stories and groups where the
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narcissistic person is going into therapy with a
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couple therapy and
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Because they want maybe to do the therapy right or show the therapist that they’re you know wonderful
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therapy students or whatever they might do kind of complied to well seem to be doing the homework and engaging but
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inevitably
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They’ll stop at some point
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If it’s going to get too deep or they’ll stop as at the end and revert back to the old behavior
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So what was going on?
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They really weren’t engaging they or snowball so or sometimes you know I’ve heard all kinds
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You know just getting up and walking out of session
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refusing to go at all going just one or two times and the things there sucks or
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Getting that therapist on their side to see that the other person’s crazy and gaslighting the therapist yeah
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It’s not definitely go very well
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I went to therapy with my
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Ex-husband
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Actually once because he was abusing my child
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Seeming non, suitable way
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But just things I didn’t want him to be doing and so we went and that
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therapist like rammed on him and said
0:18:03.630,0:18:10.789
she’s the mother you listen to what she doesn’t want you to pull her to tear you don’t pull her hair and
0:18:11.790,0:18:19.279
He refused to go back. He like threw a temper tantrum. Just like you said he was the worst, Era piston
0:18:20.760,0:18:25.429
Was giving you the honest truth, and you didn’t want to hear it. So that was the end of that session?
0:18:26.190,0:18:28.730
Exactly and uh when you’re going through our divorce
0:18:29.580,0:18:34.789
I had started seeing my friend. Who’s a therapist and
0:18:36.510,0:18:40.969
Then we started going to his war. So he kind of had it in as couples and
0:18:42.030,0:18:48.230
I can remember clear as day. How he snow balled the therapist and just
0:18:50.760,0:18:54.169
Charmed him. Oh, I would never do that
0:18:54.510,0:19:00.140
I am you going to be so fair and loving and kind and you know and and
0:19:00.750,0:19:03.619
Therapist just walked away to win. I think you’re good
0:19:06.360,0:19:07.890
Therapist told me that
0:19:07.890,0:19:09.870
It was a good guy
0:19:09.870,0:19:16.250
Yeah, exactly my line week later. I found that alcohol sex secret life was going on. Oh
0:19:19.440,0:19:20.670
Wow
0:19:20.670,0:19:25.820
Yeah, it’s really hard, and I know that um the other questions that people ask me are
0:19:26.520,0:19:29.840
How did they get that way and can they change?
0:19:30.420,0:19:37.430
People are always with the hope and the dream like oh, I know they can change they were I know yeah
0:19:37.710,0:19:40.399
Or can’t we just put them back to that guy right?
0:19:40.770,0:19:45.200
Because that guy makes it apparent for in some way often are absolutely a first time
0:19:45.200,0:19:51.799
Do you want to describe and or if you want to leave suddenly thought that there is a love bombing person perhaps back or someone?
0:19:51.800,0:19:57.590
Who’s using every manipulation and their repertoire to get you to like believe them you can go to therapy right?
0:19:57.590,0:19:59.659
We go to Therapy. I’ll do anything right
0:20:01.120,0:20:02.340
but okay
0:20:02.340,0:20:08.939
So what constitutes change change you know it changes hard right if you try to change any little thing in your life
0:20:08.940,0:20:11.730
But yeah, like my bank a while, you know
0:20:13.510,0:20:19.140
You know take you have to kind of prepare yourself for and you have to be focused on it right? Let’s say
0:20:20.620,0:20:23.910
You know you you’re irritable in the morning with your kids
0:20:23.910,0:20:24.780
I mean
0:20:24.780,0:20:27.330
You’re swole waiver up or and your kids are you know?
0:20:27.820,0:20:33.239
Chaotic and your trunk, and you find yourself snap you want to change that behavior. That’s what you need to do right
0:20:33.240,0:20:36.420
I mean even though you know loads of what you’re doing
0:20:36.970,0:20:41.699
You know you know you just get taken by surprise and in place by off handle
0:20:42.550,0:20:50.279
So change takes number-one focus takes incredible focus, but in order to have that focus it takes incredible motivation
0:20:51.040,0:20:54.899
So what makes us motivated to change in a relationship?
0:20:56.140,0:21:02.400
But the loss that we might lose it and we cared about it okay, but what about if you’re not losing it?
0:21:03.640,0:21:08.640
When you’ve wanted to change, or respond differently in a relationship what caused that?
0:21:10.510,0:21:16.440
Something was wrong, and I wanted to change it make it better. Okay, you took responsibility
0:21:17.380,0:21:24.420
Mm-Hmm you took responsibility. Maybe you felt bad for how your behavior affected the other person emphasis, right?
0:21:25.420,0:21:30.659
Empathy and you know the issue where this is going. I know it’s always like empathy because it’s like you know when you
0:21:31.630,0:21:36.690
See like when you’ve hurt someone you might not see it right away, but if they’re expressing it to you
0:21:36.690,0:21:38.970
Or you see like you keep in the same bed
0:21:39.250,0:21:40.420
kind of Conflict
0:21:40.420,0:21:45.300
happens over and over if you won’t really want to look at it and figure out what it is or if you listen to the
0:21:45.300,0:21:51.269
Person telling you you know you did is hurtful, or you’re making you elicit. It’s like, okay, you know oh
0:21:51.880,0:21:55.110
Wow, I didn’t realize that once you realize it
0:21:55.120,0:22:01.320
You don’t want to access any you won’t respond the same and even though it’s hard to make the change you try new you know
0:22:01.810,0:22:09.060
Right little by Little hopefully you can get better at know what would motivate someone without a conscience
0:22:09.550,0:22:15.689
Or empathy to change aside from you’re walking away, and I bax I’m going to do it
0:22:15.690,0:22:18.720
I’m going to I’m going to change, but are but are they capable?
0:22:19.510,0:22:20.529
Yeah
0:22:20.529,0:22:27.029
I don’t think so if you can’t look at yourself. You will feel bad about what you did if you can take responsibility for it
0:22:27.580,0:22:31.679
And if you don’t have empathy to the other person needs them
0:22:32.380,0:22:36.839
You can mask it for a little while, but right and right now having pool
0:22:37.390,0:22:39.539
Exactly you can mask it or fake it for a while
0:22:39.570,0:22:44.429
Yeah, but ultimately it’s going to go back to the same way of operating yeah
0:22:45.190,0:22:47.580
So how do these people get this way?
0:22:48.490,0:22:50.490
it’s a long story, but
0:22:51.880,0:22:58.409
It’s I mean there are theories on this a really an interesting book is if you can
0:22:58.809,0:23:03.059
this interest you is kind of a the neurobiology of
0:23:03.730,0:23:05.110
psychopathy
0:23:05.110,0:23:11.610
Okay, allen. It’s actually called the psychopath inside okay, and he’s a neuroscientist and we
0:23:12.130,0:23:14.130
explain all the
0:23:14.409,0:23:18.599
genetic the biological things that can happen in the brain pre-birth
0:23:19.210,0:23:26.789
Sometimes or we don’t nobody knows it’s my free birth right after birth during attachment things that go wrong in the brain
0:23:27.340,0:23:30.149
Mm-Hmm eventually the Brain Forms in a bad way
0:23:30.149,0:23:37.199
but you know trauma research shows us that for instance if a child is neglected when they’re
0:23:37.659,0:23:40.019
Six to nine months old or you know around that time
0:23:41.140,0:23:47.579
Their brain will not form the ability to self-soothe they’re bringing up from the ability to attach. I’ve got a problem now
0:23:47.580,0:23:53.159
You know no, you know that however it forms it can be
0:23:54.039,0:23:59.158
You know something in the biology and the genetics, but it also can be in the environment like when people are
0:23:59.740,0:24:01.450
Exposed to abuse
0:24:01.450,0:24:07.080
Or neglect women as a child for any for length of time they learn
0:24:07.570,0:24:15.120
to shut down no they learn to not express their needs to be met or they shut down and dissociate because it’s
0:24:15.880,0:24:16.899
scarier
0:24:16.899,0:24:22.559
Terrifying environment, and then in that way you kind of you know if you shut down your attachment
0:24:22.559,0:24:25.288
You can actually get conditioned to not see
0:24:26.140,0:24:30.900
No, it’s probably a combination of the two okay. That was very quick explanation
0:24:30.900,0:24:36.030
But what James fallon found in all of the literature on people who are?
0:24:36.550,0:24:41.430
Psychopaths or psychopathic was that they all had either severe abuse?
0:24:42.160,0:24:45.209
Or neglect or the loss of one of both parents?
0:24:45.880,0:24:49.589
Mm-Hmm, so it’s it as though the abuse is involved
0:24:49.590,0:24:57.209
I don’t believe that people grow up and hurt other people unless they can hurt right and and what I have heard and
0:24:58.780,0:25:05.069
You can correct me. Please is that if you were raised by a narcissistic parent?
0:25:05.650,0:25:13.139
That you were exposed to that and you learned to protect yourself and put up a shield
0:25:13.540,0:25:17.040
so that you either became a narcissist or a
0:25:18.040,0:25:19.810
head in the sand
0:25:19.810,0:25:23.759
Codependent trying to pet one right true true
0:25:24.030,0:25:29.040
So yeah, that’s something yeah, and it might be like a combination that which would be pretty
0:25:30.100,0:25:36.569
Severe and a person’s biology personality to begin with Mm-Hmm right depending
0:25:36.570,0:25:39.480
I mean like you were saying where you talked about codependent?
0:25:42.340,0:25:48.750
You know it code well, and stop it won’t talk about it. Yeah, that’s fine like
0:25:50.560,0:25:52.530
right um by the way
0:25:52.530,0:25:59.310
I just want to say so I don’t forget what I call this whole cluster of personality. I define it as low conscience
0:26:00.040,0:26:03.959
Externalizing disorder that’s how I define it who nobody else does
0:26:06.130,0:26:07.480
and by
0:26:07.480,0:26:15.329
Externalizing. I mean like really if there was kind of a codependent person they get all of their self esteem and resolve all their
0:26:15.330,0:26:19.319
issues from the outside not integrally with a weird kind of
0:26:20.140,0:26:22.000
Codependency onanism
0:26:22.000,0:26:26.040
Not yeah different than we think of Codependency, but anyway
0:26:26.590,0:26:30.240
what we think of is so dependence for their different ways of
0:26:31.120,0:26:33.120
defining that
0:26:33.310,0:26:40.739
It’s value through caretaking right value to caretaking so somewhere along the line in childhood
0:26:41.110,0:26:47.309
You were valued for taking care of someone else’s me like in other words. Maybe like if you had a narcissistic parent
0:26:47.309,0:26:54.298
Maybe you became in a sense of parent your age you know you’re responding to what that parent needs rather than that parent responding to
0:26:54.299,0:26:54.630
you so
0:26:54.630,0:26:58.170
Can you have a self you know you don’t get to be a child you have to?
0:26:58.540,0:27:04.319
You know you can become what that other person needs so as a person grows up
0:27:04.320,0:27:06.240
and if they find a relationship
0:27:06.240,0:27:09.929
Which is likely to be exactly that for them
0:27:10.270,0:27:11.910
They’re going to take that role you
0:27:11.910,0:27:16.499
Take the role that is how their values this is how they hold everything together and this is also
0:27:16.500,0:27:20.040
How they control let me talk you become very dependent on me
0:27:20.040,0:27:24.209
Then I can be more assured that you’re not going right. You love me
0:27:24.210,0:27:29.370
And I’m underneath that of course. It’s like tremendous leaders IV and I’ll be closely conscious enough
0:27:29.370,0:27:34.349
There’s a lot of anxiety got abandoned a lot of anxiety about Love being withdrawn
0:27:35.440,0:27:41.340
And if you’re an abusive situation saying that you know if he’s only one it’s your child
0:27:41.340,0:27:47.790
And you’re being abused you have no power you can’t run you can’t fight. You can fight the mangy any good, right?
0:27:47.980,0:27:50.130
So what you do is freeze, that’s the third
0:27:50.650,0:27:54.389
Survival response right so you just so she ignore the work you take yourself away
0:27:54.390,0:27:57.329
And endure the moment now if you have to do that in trial
0:27:57.330,0:28:02.819
But you’re going to be really good and doing it in a relationship. It’s abuse right, okay, right, right?
0:28:04.120,0:28:05.650
and
0:28:05.650,0:28:09.030
Another thing about Codependency most people who are codependent
0:28:09.880,0:28:14.429
Have tend to have an empathetic nature to keep born with an empathetic nature
0:28:14.429,0:28:19.709
That’s why they take that role on and that’s where the parent targets them for that role. So there’s also
0:28:19.720,0:28:25.860
You know it’s not all bad. It’s insisting to have this just becomes dysfunctional when you grow up in a dysfunctional situation
0:28:27.220,0:28:32.790
And so people you know the empathetic and to be very responsible because the very responsive
0:28:33.820,0:28:38.730
Often have a rescue fantasy you know I could just leave it all to me leave your relationship with me
0:28:38.730,0:28:42.689
I can do it all no matter what deficits you have I got it. You know
0:28:44.500,0:28:46.559
Doesn’t really you know work out of course
0:28:48.370,0:28:52.349
so that that would be the most more dysfunctional kind of
0:28:53.380,0:28:54.680
Codependency
0:28:54.680,0:28:59.950
Character you know a personalized and empathetic nature’s and have also some of those same traits
0:29:00.650,0:29:04.690
You know to be to feel for the other person to want to be?
0:29:05.000,0:29:09.729
Reliable and have that person to depend on them to do responds into the purse and take responsibility
0:29:10.130,0:29:16.450
Or what’s going on right? Those are just general and those are good those those that those traits of a
0:29:17.000,0:29:20.710
Caretaking person are good because in a relationship you need to be a caretaker
0:29:20.810,0:29:26.830
But you also need to be caretaking right that’s people it is it kind of?
0:29:27.440,0:29:29.440
creates the ability to love
0:29:29.930,0:29:31.930
Right you can’t love unless you
0:29:34.520,0:29:39.129
Have concern or care for the person to the point where you are?
0:29:39.920,0:29:45.519
Just as pretty certain about what they need as as yourself right if I’m dr.. Leon freedom
0:29:46.280,0:29:52.030
To find love the ability to care for someone else as much as on more than yourself
0:29:52.460,0:29:55.869
Mm-Hmm to help you and hopefully give me back
0:29:56.390,0:30:00.190
but whether it’s a dysfunctional kind of codependent or
0:30:00.710,0:30:04.269
Just that kind of personality make a good target for someone
0:30:05.030,0:30:07.300
like a narcissist or associate
0:30:07.640,0:30:13.420
Or low conscience person right because you are going to take you know they’re going to not going to take responsibility
0:30:13.910,0:30:15.590
Which of course can make you?
0:30:15.590,0:30:20.350
Scramble them well what can I do what can I do with going wrong like what else can I do let me try this?
0:30:20.510,0:30:27.910
Because and they’re telling you that you’re wrong. So you’re saying my and my mom you know and you know on and on and you?
0:30:29.090,0:30:30.520
Know and you you keep trying
0:30:30.520,0:30:36.970
You don’t give up and if I kind of personality, and so you make a empathetic they want to be safe
0:30:37.670,0:30:44.649
They want to be safe. They they probably haven’t come have a child videos so they want someone who really can love they want someone
0:30:45.620,0:30:52.270
And at first that’s why it can go okay, and I finally found love someone who’s not been abandoned
0:30:52.270,0:30:54.270
Be someone, who’s they?
0:30:54.410,0:31:01.989
Safe to fake love, but then inevitably they really can’t change the whole love relationship. So yeah
0:31:02.810,0:31:06.729
So how do we test how do we know the next time I mean?
0:31:07.520,0:31:11.959
We obviously have to educate ourselves on red flags. We have to understand right?
0:31:11.960,0:31:17.600
here’s that artists and our tone ability you know our tendencies to be a
0:31:17.910,0:31:19.969
Codependent to be nurturing to
0:31:20.640,0:31:24.229
You know have less self love and give love more
0:31:25.560,0:31:27.360
But how do we identify?
0:31:27.360,0:31:34.849
What what would be your advice when people are going out to date again? You know I have people that have been married for years
0:31:35.420,0:31:40.729
And not that they want to go out and date, but they didn’t know it for
0:31:41.850,0:31:43.200
39 Years
0:31:43.200,0:31:46.159
Right now, how do you trust again?
0:31:46.860,0:31:48.860
well good question
0:31:49.590,0:31:51.590
Trusting is really
0:31:52.470,0:31:58.640
12 a.m., number one it’s what you said, you know to recognize the signs, okay um I?
0:32:00.450,0:32:03.439
Always say to people who does something so empathetic?
0:32:04.050,0:32:07.999
You know are the amp would do they are there they show interest in you are they able
0:32:08.520,0:32:14.330
To resolve conflict now if you never have conflicts with a person something’s wrong, right?
0:32:15.540,0:32:21.830
if you’re dating someone for six nine months, and there’s no conflict there’s something wrong, and there’s something wrong with you because
0:32:24.030,0:32:30.680
It’s impossible not to have some conflict it means that somehow you don’t mind you don’t feel safe and just expressing yourself
0:32:31.410,0:32:33.830
You know so that’s that would be a red flag
0:32:34.260,0:32:39.770
but to see if someone in a in a conference or in a difference that they are able to
0:32:41.490,0:32:48.560
It doesn’t have to be their way they can understand your side of it if you’re complaining about them for instance
0:32:49.290,0:32:52.580
Those are four things Mm-hmm
0:32:53.550,0:32:59.839
Are they able to emphasize in different situation not just at the beginning when everything’s so wonderful and like oh, yes
0:32:59.840,0:33:06.020
And and they’re not just supportive like you’re you know you’re complaining about your boss, and they’re saying oh yeah, that’s terrible
0:33:06.180,0:33:08.959
I’m sorry give you up. That’s one kind of
0:33:09.720,0:33:15.949
Sympathy Empathy Concern, but it’s like when they talk about you you talk about felony, and they’re saying oh
0:33:16.560,0:33:19.190
Okay, yeah, I get what you’re saying priors
0:33:19.830,0:33:22.280
Right able to get to the you know to that point
0:33:23.310,0:33:25.909
Yeah, and I know that for me
0:33:26.880,0:33:30.140
The biggest lesson was that actions speak louder than words
0:33:30.710,0:33:35.960
Yeah, I was always charmed by the words the x 2x and 3x
0:33:36.540,0:33:41.180
that the words charmed me into a comfortable place again and
0:33:42.360,0:33:43.530
Okay
0:33:43.530,0:33:46.009
Alright, but then they would do the same action
0:33:46.530,0:33:49.459
That they were doing before and then the words would come
0:33:49.620,0:33:56.420
And I didn’t listen to the actions because the words came in a kiss on the cheek, and I owe this sort of thing
0:33:57.090,0:33:59.090
but now I see like
0:33:59.580,0:34:02.120
action stand up there and
0:34:04.350,0:34:11.659
Don’t run away from an argument or a discussion things like that that I think for me are going to be a big
0:34:12.210,0:34:14.870
Nuts in the read a ting something
0:34:15.780,0:34:17.780
absolutely right actions
0:34:18.270,0:34:24.320
I’ve heard many people say that. They’re you know x would you say I love you and kiss them hello
0:34:24.320,0:34:29.719
And we buy every day or they were out with you know someone else. You know what I mean see some yes
0:34:30.870,0:34:34.399
Yeah, it is also a relationship doesn’t feel
0:34:36.300,0:34:40.130
Like like if it feels like there’s something wrong something problem
0:34:40.130,0:34:44.809
There’s something to you is uneasy if there’s anything questionable at all if someone hides their phone
0:34:45.690,0:34:47.720
Passwords you know I mean like of course
0:34:48.360,0:34:49.440
Look at that
0:34:49.440,0:34:53.570
Leaky things are bad it sometimes they’ll come right out and say it, so
0:34:53.850,0:34:59.659
Many people say that you know at one point or early on in the relationship the person said something like oh
0:35:00.060,0:35:04.130
You know who I really was you’d never want to do you know those kinds of things you know
0:35:04.130,0:35:06.130
I’m not really a very good person
0:35:07.230,0:35:09.230
Listen to that
0:35:09.390,0:35:13.069
They say that often I actually has plenty to people
0:35:15.360,0:35:17.809
Getting paid no attention to it because like you said
0:35:18.480,0:35:23.480
Someone is putting on this we are giving you so much attention and everything seems, so great
0:35:23.480,0:35:31.219
And you know I just want to say a word to about like vulnerability like it’s like if you’ve been like you
0:35:31.490,0:35:37.010
And most people listening have have been in a relationship where you’ve been traumatized
0:35:38.280,0:35:46.219
and there is trauma that’s a whole other subject and being in these relationships because the other thing I didn’t meant every time I’ll
0:35:46.470,0:35:51.980
Codependence, but there’s also something called a victim syndrome. I love you ever heard that in
0:35:52.710,0:35:56.389
research of a victim syndrome happens when you’re in a
0:35:57.420,0:36:04.369
Situation where you’re constantly being abused or manipulated or defeated deceived and some form of abuse?
0:36:04.830,0:36:06.570
over any period of time
0:36:06.570,0:36:12.019
Things start to happen to you doesn’t matter. How healthy you start out not strong
0:36:12.020,0:36:15.050
They start out or whatever you know a strong sense into yourself
0:36:15.630,0:36:17.720
However, it doesn’t matter about you
0:36:17.720,0:36:19.310
if you stay in that situation
0:36:19.310,0:36:27.019
And on people don’t jump out you have kids if you’ve been invested most people just don’t you don’t see it
0:36:27.020,0:36:29.869
Right you have this person that’s starting to do all this stuff
0:36:31.140,0:36:33.140
criticizing all the time distancing
0:36:34.080,0:36:35.849
demeaning whatever
0:36:35.849,0:36:40.609
Actual abuse you start to break down we start to do that thing or you might associate
0:36:41.339,0:36:46.459
because it’s traumatic you’re being assaulted, but nothing you can do about it on a regular basis, so
0:36:47.099,0:36:52.069
Yourself starts to kind of go on the ground you lose your sense of self image in confidence
0:36:53.520,0:36:55.520
You lose
0:36:57.960,0:37:02.300
Your you know like your own sense of your emotion you can’t feel anymore. Do you?
0:37:03.359,0:37:08.598
It’s not safe. You can’t speak you know you break down. It’s almost like a prisoner war them
0:37:08.630,0:37:12.530
it has an extremely footings, but you will break down, so
0:37:13.740,0:37:17.959
Codependence doesn’t always lead to somebody like this and there could be other
0:37:18.690,0:37:20.690
vulnerabilities like
0:37:20.700,0:37:27.530
Being in a relationship like you were like it york. It was traumatic or it was failed in a failed marriage divorce or
0:37:28.290,0:37:34.249
Someone died long or something like that so that then you become a little bit more
0:37:36.810,0:37:42.619
Hesitating to engage fully you might not be aware of it like it’s like a trust issue. There’s a
0:37:43.349,0:37:45.050
different kind of belief
0:37:45.050,0:37:49.160
When you were younger you thought oh, love is forever. Love is good. Love the state now
0:37:49.160,0:37:51.410
You’ve had this experience of love that was horrible
0:37:52.140,0:37:57.920
Traumatizing or or failed so now you have a different belief about what can happen to be much more
0:37:58.950,0:38:00.950
They have to be careful
0:38:00.990,0:38:02.340
not to
0:38:02.340,0:38:09.380
Be that you don’t want to keep your emotions thing you have to be careful about attracting a superficial relationship
0:38:10.080,0:38:15.049
Because you’re afraid what that make sense that’s totally what happened with oh
0:38:15.090,0:38:18.709
yeah, be the marriage and the next guy I was so afraid and
0:38:19.380,0:38:21.380
I
0:38:21.930,0:38:26.450
Yeah, it took a whole lot. Less than I should have because I didn’t wanna
0:38:27.150,0:38:33.979
Catch me on that. I’m still afraid I’m not ready. I’m not ready right for baddest already, then I?
0:38:35.160,0:38:37.639
Already sign alright. Yeah, this is a good one
0:38:37.640,0:38:43.729
I get what I want and I don’t have to have the commitment that I would have my ex-wife, so
0:38:44.700,0:38:45.560
Exactly yeah
0:38:45.560,0:38:48.620
And then you have to watch out for other vulnerabilities like you know am I?
0:38:49.080,0:38:56.239
You know don’t make a desperate decision based on the older and passing the pregnancy window all my friends are getting married
0:38:57.090,0:39:01.130
No, one’s going to want me. I’m getting too old you know like those kinds of things
0:39:02.250,0:39:04.250
and of course low Self-esteem and
0:39:05.700,0:39:09.919
Narcissistic parents would do some child’s or less stuff can make you more vulnerable
0:39:09.920,0:39:14.510
So it’s good if you’ve been in a relationship like this, it’s a good opportunity to
0:39:15.570,0:39:19.910
Look at it. All that. All that inhale it first right I?
0:39:20.760,0:39:25.880
think for me, and I love your information on this, but in my
0:39:26.610,0:39:28.530
10-Year marriage
0:39:28.530,0:39:30.420
and
0:39:30.420,0:39:32.420
the the psychopathic
0:39:33.300,0:39:37.550
Mother-in-law things that I had to deal with I began to get sick
0:39:38.640,0:39:41.209
Like weird, but nobody could identify it
0:39:42.150,0:39:46.519
It was just weird things would happen to me and then they would say
0:39:46.520,0:39:51.320
Oh, you’re the sick one and and put me down for physically sick
0:39:51.530,0:39:57.199
Oh, yeah, like my gallbladder had to be one enough like that was my fault I
0:39:58.200,0:40:05.689
But the they were using that against me that I would somehow we and I think a lot of this was due to
0:40:05.849,0:40:12.979
Distress, oh absolutely, there’s all kinds of research about how certain kinds of diseases are
0:40:13.559,0:40:15.559
Absolutely related to stress
0:40:15.839,0:40:19.308
know even a little new diseases cancer adrenal fatigue
0:40:20.849,0:40:23.689
Fibromyalgia, which is another word. Oh yeah what you’re saying?
0:40:23.690,0:40:30.200
I mean the body we can see what’s happening if you’re in that ongoing stress it you know
0:40:30.200,0:40:34.939
You’re like a child and we’re going to abuse an abusive situation where you can’t do anything
0:40:34.940,0:40:41.599
So but your body is still going into fight or flight. You know you’re being threatened on a regular basis, so the body will react
0:40:42.809,0:40:44.809
Fight or flight is like panic anxiety
0:40:45.390,0:40:48.259
And you know your green will come up?
0:40:48.259,0:40:53.299
And you know you kind of get your body is ready to defend itself or to you know
0:40:54.329,0:40:55.710
it
0:40:55.710,0:41:01.250
Psychologically from a threat your body will react them so that kind of continual
0:41:02.369,0:41:09.469
Reactivation of your nervous system you might will lower your muse, so then you become vulnerable to all kinds yeah
0:41:09.470,0:41:15.259
I think that was what happened to me and not to mention anxiety and depression. Oh yeah, we got that
0:41:17.609,0:41:24.619
yeah, we have the whole trauma thing if there’s a whole trauma package if they could send it from Amazon I would have had the
0:41:24.619,0:41:26.619
whole travel package
0:41:26.849,0:41:34.729
Yeah, I’m sure and then and I think so many of the people because you and I both have meetup groups and we meet people
0:41:35.519,0:41:37.519
regularly
0:41:38.099,0:41:42.828
Everybody’s in different stages, but we see so many
0:41:43.619,0:41:45.569
things that
0:41:45.569,0:41:47.569
everybody’s going through and
0:41:48.029,0:41:55.339
Some meetings. I’ll get to and everybody will be a child of a narcissist, and it’s all really other meetings
0:41:55.339,0:42:02.449
There is a lot of divorcing lately we’ve had a lot of people being arrested by their narcissist and so
0:42:03.150,0:42:04.579
It goes in in waves
0:42:04.579,0:42:08.659
But as you sit there in addition to the stories it becomes so much clearer
0:42:08.660,0:42:16.100
And I think to the people who come to these groups it comes a lifeline because then they find out that
0:42:16.100,0:42:18.100
they’re not alone and
0:42:18.300,0:42:19.470
I
0:42:19.470,0:42:26.959
Can direct them I can guide them you can guide them to what to read about that you’re struggling with this
0:42:27.330,0:42:32.059
let’s study this you know and and the more they can get this sort of
0:42:33.000,0:42:37.580
Group love the more. I think they can go faster
0:42:38.760,0:42:42.080
Absolutely, you know that’s an actual that’s an actual
0:42:42.750,0:42:44.750
company to do with being human
0:42:45.000,0:42:46.880
That you know people heal
0:42:46.880,0:42:51.260
And don’t heal a loan they heal in the presence of others you pre
0:42:51.300,0:42:56.989
catchment because when we sit in a room with others and they you know you can look them in the eye and they
0:42:57.240,0:43:00.169
Can feel their empathy feel connected?
0:43:00.840,0:43:03.079
Hormones or relief like this hormone oxytocin
0:43:05.040,0:43:12.499
Serotonin and you know like that’s why it helps adult feeling deal with our healthcare our brain just to share like that I
0:43:12.869,0:43:17.959
Mean that’s one of the reasons. It’s also like you said you know I’m not alone and
0:43:19.200,0:43:21.200
Maybe I’m not crazy
0:43:21.869,0:43:26.539
Maybe and everyone’s ho confused right? I want region is like
0:43:28.170,0:43:32.420
It’s like a broom hit you in the head, and you’re just like what just happened
0:43:32.640,0:43:39.020
Maybe how could my life be a lie. I don’t understand that I’ve been hearing for forty years or something and
0:43:39.600,0:43:41.070
You know it
0:43:41.070,0:43:44.570
It’s very strange to people and that is definitely one of the first
0:43:44.970,0:43:52.550
Things that I know that the survivors come to us with like what happened. Yeah
0:43:53.520,0:43:59.419
Yeah, and just for them even to one time talk about it and other people say yeah that happened to me, too
0:44:00.660,0:44:03.170
Wow, Huge hMM
0:44:04.140,0:44:05.220
Yeah
0:44:05.220,0:44:10.490
Well, sweetie. I have taken up enough of your time. I would love to come back and talk to you more
0:44:10.490,0:44:12.679
We can come up with your topics
0:44:12.680,0:44:19.790
But I’d like you to tell people where they can reach you and we’ll put the address in your url and your website low
0:44:19.950,0:44:27.260
But can people do coaching with you like one-on-one because like it yes from campus that don’t have and one near them
0:44:27.660,0:44:30.589
Yes, I can do skype or home
0:44:31.230,0:44:35.060
Sessions with people Mm-Hmm. I take insurance most insurance
0:44:36.540,0:44:38.340
yeah, and we have the
0:44:38.340,0:44:40.579
You know the free group if someone is somewhere
0:44:40.580,0:44:45.319
And they can’t get somewhere of just let me know you can join our online group twice a month
0:44:46.410,0:44:48.769
the the Website is
0:44:52.530,0:44:57.050
wwlp uptick relationships elcom So long
0:44:59.610,0:45:01.880
But the pretty much says it so it’s good
0:45:02.820,0:45:04.580
Well, thank you so much, Mary
0:45:04.580,0:45:05.280
Ann
0:45:05.280,0:45:11.360
You are a dream person and for those of you who don’t know she has written an article for the narcissists abuse
0:45:11.490,0:45:19.130
Website and I advise you to go and check it out if you’re interested in signing up and starting a meetup wherever you are
0:45:19.610,0:45:26.870
This girl is your like person to talk to you. She has done it. She’s created that manual and
0:45:27.780,0:45:33.320
There are really a lot of good stuff in there, so thank you mary ann. Thank you tracie. It was great
0:45:33.480,0:45:36.350
Yeah, I know your hundred and I look forward to
0:45:37.170,0:45:39.409
Talking with you again me, too
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