Why do parents turn their children against the parent? How often is this tactic falsely used against a ‘good” parent. We know narcissists and abusers know exactly how to “get” us, “push” the right buttons. Sadly this tactic is used so often courts do not really understand who to side with.
Join my discussion with Carolyn a mom that has not seen her three children in four years.
Transcription:
0:00:00.939,0:00:04.859
Hi there. This is Tracy and today. I am with Carolyn
0:00:04.860,0:00:10.019
I met carolyn through the domestic violence coalition of Colorado and
0:00:10.660,0:00:15.269
She’s got quite a story to tell and I’m really grateful that you’re here to
0:00:15.970,0:00:19.199
talk with me and help my
0:00:20.140,0:00:21.340
subscribers
0:00:21.340,0:00:23.340
understand
0:00:23.500,0:00:28.710
the other side of domestic violence emotional abuse is always a part of
0:00:30.520,0:00:32.469
domestic violence, but
0:00:32.469,0:00:37.139
What we want to talk about today is child alienation, so tell me
0:00:37.989,0:00:42.779
How are we married I was married for just under ten years
0:00:43.839,0:00:46.709
To my ex-husband and we have three [children] together
0:00:47.710,0:00:49.210
okay, and
0:00:49.210,0:00:51.210
Did it start off?
0:00:51.609,0:00:55.889
Like bad, did you walk in and something just wasn’t right?
0:00:56.039,0:01:02.728
no in fact um I fell in love with him because he had this boyish charm [and] made me laugh and
0:01:03.489,0:01:06.029
We seem to have a great time together
0:01:07.049,0:01:13.139
And we had a lot of fun together, so no it. It wasn’t an immediate thing
0:01:13.140,0:01:15.689
It was very gradual [I]
0:01:16.719,0:01:20.759
Recall that you know I felt like the moment we got married
0:01:21.369,0:01:26.129
Is when I became his possession [it] wasn’t until that
0:01:26.530,0:01:32.070
Point that I felt that way, but once we got married I felt that way. I think that’s very common
0:01:32.070,0:01:34.229
I hear it from a lot [of] the
0:01:34.780,0:01:36.310
Survivors and the
0:01:36.310,0:01:38.310
subscribers to my channel is
0:01:38.380,0:01:39.640
that
0:01:39.640,0:01:47.039
it’s the love-bombing phase the idealization phase and then boom you get married and
0:01:47.859,0:01:54.689
Sometimes I’ve heard within minutes the person is completely changed, and then that’s what happened for you
0:01:54.789,0:01:57.389
yeah, I would say that wow and
0:01:58.210,0:01:59.469
um
0:01:59.469,0:02:06.719
what kind of abuse did you undertake with this man over the years sure so a lot of it was a
0:02:07.659,0:02:09.659
Lot of it was emotional
0:02:09.819,0:02:13.799
Um definitely mental a lot of [gaslighting] was going on
0:02:13.800,0:02:19.679
I I felt like I was walking around on eggshells most of the time and that I lived with Dr.. Jekyll and Mr.
0:02:19.680,0:02:21.519
Hyde I never quite knew
0:02:21.519,0:02:23.519
Exactly what I was going to get
0:02:24.280,0:02:26.909
There was a lot of infidelity on his part that
0:02:27.489,0:02:32.399
was always blamed on me not doing the right thing or not being the right wife or
0:02:33.400,0:02:36.720
Not caring about him the way that somebody else may care about him
0:02:36.720,0:02:41.759
So I was I was always feeling like everything with my fault there were several occasions where?
0:02:42.970,0:02:45.089
There was demand. No physical abuse
0:02:46.360,0:02:48.360
when I was pregnant with our oldest child
0:02:49.599,0:02:53.099
Caitlyn’s he punched someone he kicked me in the stomach and
0:02:54.670,0:02:58.289
as he got up he ended up scratching my face and
0:02:59.349,0:03:01.349
but the most and
0:03:01.810,0:03:04.739
Then there were a couple other after that there was another one where?
0:03:05.470,0:03:08.669
It was really the only time that I really [feared] for my life
0:03:09.400,0:03:11.400
[he] had me in a headlock [and]
0:03:11.830,0:03:13.830
I thought he was going to snap my neck
0:03:14.860,0:03:20.939
And at that same point he also had his hand over my mouth [and] my nose with when I couldn’t breathe and I
0:03:21.220,0:03:26.369
ended up with huge scratch marks on my face because I was trying to pry his hands off of my face and
0:03:26.500,0:03:28.500
for whatever reason he
0:03:29.079,0:03:31.060
He let go of me that night
0:03:31.060,0:03:35.699
And I was able to call 9-1-1 and he did receive a domestic violence charge
0:03:35.950,0:03:40.349
a Dui because he come home after a binge drinking and
0:03:41.920,0:03:47.339
also resisting arrest of course it was all drop down to harassment and then
0:03:49.329,0:03:54.059
while we were going through our divorce he came over to the marital home and
0:03:57.459,0:03:59.459
he
0:03:59.560,0:04:05.640
He pushed me out of the back of the u-Haul because he had grabbed our youngest daughter’s car seat
0:04:05.640,0:04:08.909
and I didn’t have money to replace the car seat and
0:04:09.159,0:04:14.669
He had grabbed that and so I was trying to [grab] get into you how to get out and he pushed me out of that
0:04:15.729,0:04:19.679
what I didn’t know is that he had a baseball bat in the cab of the
0:04:20.769,0:04:22.769
Evol as well as breast knuckles
0:04:23.180,0:04:30.259
And he told my daughter my oldest daughter whom he dropped moffat. This is a baseball bat for killing people not for playing baseball
0:04:30.900,0:04:35.299
And he actually came asking me with the baseball bat in front of my children then again
0:04:35.300,0:04:39.829
I was able to call mainland when immediately and he was arrested again for
0:04:40.590,0:04:45.769
actually this time felony domestic violence and harassment [and] he also received a charge from
0:04:47.009,0:04:51.169
The Department of Social [services] for child Endangerment because it happened in front of our children
0:04:52.410,0:04:54.410
and again it was all um
0:04:55.229,0:05:01.069
Dropped down to lesser charges and the only time that he actually did was six months in jail for work
0:05:01.070,0:05:04.099
Release because he violated his probation with another Dui
0:05:04.800,0:05:11.000
So this man that you were married to he sounds evil and he sounds
0:05:12.120,0:05:14.120
disturbed and
0:05:14.759,0:05:16.819
Yet he gets out of
0:05:17.009,0:05:23.538
being arrested and and has everything dropped down because I know you know I was arrested for domestic violence and
0:05:23.820,0:05:26.539
Trespassing and and I’ve had a year [of] hell
0:05:26.909,0:05:33.799
So how does somebody and has done me terrific things just walk, how does the system? What that happens?
0:05:33.800,0:05:36.409
I don’t know how the system lets it happen um
0:05:37.080,0:05:41.990
The one thing I can tell you is [that] he he really believes that he is completely above the law
0:05:42.389,0:05:45.379
and that he is untouchable, [and] I know that a lot of
0:05:46.349,0:05:53.658
People who are narcissistic and also have personality disorders or you [know] personality disorders basically um?
0:05:54.180,0:05:56.130
Think the same way that they are
0:05:56.130,0:05:59.929
Untouchable that they’re above the law that nobody can touch them nobody can hurt them
0:06:00.570,0:06:07.879
[I] think that money in the you know the attorneys that he’s been able to get to represent him have a huge influence
0:06:10.740,0:06:16.820
You know I you know I also think [that] in some ways I’ve made a lot of mistakes too. You know
0:06:17.699,0:06:21.379
here I saw somebody that was getting ready to you know go to jail and
0:06:22.259,0:06:25.069
Not only was he financially supporting um
0:06:25.979,0:06:29.959
His new wife and her three children, but he was also giving me financial support
0:06:29.960,0:06:36.180
And I also saw that two families could potentially crumble if you were to go to jail for any length of Time I
0:06:36.760,0:06:40.499
actually spoke up at his sentencing and asked for
0:06:42.790,0:06:48.419
Work release so that he [continues] supporting both families because without his financial support
0:06:48.610,0:06:50.610
We would crumble now
0:06:50.830,0:06:55.229
You know there’s a lot of things that I think I could have done [a] lot differently but at the time
0:06:55.229,0:06:57.749
I thought I was doing the right thing and and
0:06:58.449,0:07:00.959
What I changed things knowing what I know now
0:07:01.570,0:07:05.639
Absolutely, but at the time. I didn’t know I thought I was doing all the right [things] not
0:07:05.889,0:07:12.959
That’s the the thing with any of us as victims. We are good people. We want the good thing
0:07:12.960,0:07:14.960
We give them the benefit of the doubt
0:07:14.979,0:07:19.109
Constantly but in all [of] this that he has done to me
0:07:19.110,0:07:19.800
I mean
0:07:19.800,0:07:26.430
That’s just a bunch of strikes on the card you know and I would think judges and police would be like okay bad dude
0:07:26.710,0:07:28.710
Nice wife
0:07:28.960,0:07:33.840
But where are your children today? He has custody of my children and
0:07:35.500,0:07:37.559
your three children live with him
0:07:38.650,0:07:43.769
Full-time, and do you see them. No, I haven’t seen my daughter’s now in
0:07:44.410,0:07:50.880
over five years, and I haven’t seen my [son] in over three years [and] I’m actually still court order to
0:07:51.400,0:07:57.870
Have visitation with my son and also have phone calls price a week, and you don’t get them know
0:07:58.570,0:07:59.710
so
0:07:59.710,0:08:06.180
What kind of thinks has he done to alienate your children from you because if you’ve got a court order to see them
0:08:08.740,0:08:12.299
Isn’t it just as simple as okay? He’s mine on Tuesday. Bye
0:08:12.880,0:08:18.389
No, it’s not that simple [um] I’ve been told that my friend doesn’t want to have anything to do with me
0:08:18.389,0:08:20.459
He is getting ready to turn
0:08:21.760,0:08:23.289
Ten and
0:08:23.289,0:08:26.249
So for the last three [years] he you know
0:08:26.250,0:08:28.139
I’ve told that he doesn’t have anything to do with me
0:08:28.139,0:08:33.389
And you can’t possibly make you know a small child get into a car
0:08:33.610,0:08:39.150
kicking and screaming and go for a visit, and I guess there’s part of me that we disagree you know as a
0:08:39.700,0:08:46.169
healthy parent and a healthy relationship with your children [you] encourage them [to] have a relationship with their other parent no matter what and
0:08:46.510,0:08:51.119
Even if they thought that I was in parent, or that I was a danger of some
0:08:51.120,0:08:57.600
Sort you put things into place so that you can still have a [relationship] with your children there are times when I feel like
0:08:58.990,0:09:02.580
You know people that are sitting in [prison] have more rights to their children than I do
0:09:03.430,0:09:06.930
I’m denied having any kind of pictures or
0:09:07.300,0:09:12.780
Knowing about any special events that they’re going to or any of the milestones that they have in school
0:09:13.720,0:09:16.679
I’m not allowed to know what’s going on with them and
0:09:17.290,0:09:18.670
You know there was a time
0:09:18.670,0:09:24.269
[not] too long ago probably about a year [ago] where we accidentally ran into my oldest daughter and my ex-husband at a
0:09:24.790,0:09:26.790
sporting event and for
0:09:26.890,0:09:32.340
You know two hours after that I was belittled through text messages about how I should have never shown up
0:09:32.340,0:09:33.270
And I should have known better
0:09:33.270,0:09:38.220
and I’m harassing them and I’m stalking them and just going on and on and on about how I’m
0:09:38.710,0:09:40.710
Creating all of this Chaos in his life
0:09:41.620,0:09:48.450
Because I showed up at a sporting event that I had no clue they would even be act um but yet. It’s my fault and
0:09:50.290,0:09:56.819
You know in all reality? He’s the one who’s creating the Chaos not me. Oh yeah, and he’s [gaslighting] you and he’s
0:09:57.910,0:10:00.600
Telling your children [bad] things about you
0:10:00.640,0:10:07.410
Yeah, and like I know we have to go through parenting class when you’re getting a divorce and you are told not to
0:10:07.960,0:10:09.960
ever tell the children about
0:10:10.390,0:10:15.030
bad things about their parents so that they can keep this connection and
0:10:15.640,0:10:17.640
Be with their mom or their dad
0:10:18.310,0:10:25.229
That has to be so hard I can believe it my son at the age of probably six years old um [I]
0:10:25.780,0:10:27.580
had told me
0:10:27.580,0:10:31.229
How he was mad at me because I wasn’t paying child support
0:10:32.290,0:10:35.399
wow, which wasn’t true at the time but
0:10:36.280,0:10:40.859
That my son and six years old told me that he was mad at me [because] I wasn’t paying child support
0:10:41.020,0:10:47.819
How would a six-year-old know that unless [daddy] sitting there dreaming it into his head and telling them bad things about you
0:10:47.820,0:10:50.249
That is the classic child alienation
0:10:50.590,0:10:53.369
Kind of you know he’s going by the manual
0:10:53.440,0:10:54.540
Listen to just sit there
0:10:54.540,0:10:59.279
And tell them bad things about you make them afraid if you don’t when you’re crazy
0:10:59.770,0:11:04.439
Tell them you’re drunk um you know lots of people are told. They’re a whore
0:11:04.440,0:11:11.700
I mean, whatever is it’s something that the children should never ever ever hear sure so yeah, I mean
0:11:11.700,0:11:16.740
I’m my kids are are probably told cuz it’s one of things that he tells me I know I
0:11:16.930,0:11:22.229
happen to be a recovering [alcoholic] and so he has convinced my children that I’m still drinking and I’m a
0:11:22.450,0:11:27.210
Drug addict that [my] new husband is probably a sexual predator
0:11:28.870,0:11:36.060
[it’s] very interesting with parental alienation or this type [of] thing that happens with children after an abusive relationship
0:11:38.110,0:11:39.670
They can
0:11:39.670,0:11:45.539
they can see a picture of a very loving moment with their parent that they’ve been alienated from but the
0:11:46.390,0:11:47.920
Alienator Will
0:11:47.920,0:11:49.500
twist it and turn it and say
0:11:49.500,0:11:49.800
but oh
0:11:49.800,0:11:51.800
You don’t know what happened behind the scenes
0:11:51.970,0:11:57.779
[now] your mom or your dad was doing this that day and your mom or your dad was saying this about you or the other
0:11:57.780,0:12:02.009
People that were around them and so now this child has taken this very loving
0:12:02.650,0:12:05.850
Memory and now it’s become an unpleasant memory
0:12:06.790,0:12:09.180
Just like that, and now they’re able to
0:12:10.360,0:12:13.349
believe the lies as though it’s their own reality and
0:12:14.830,0:12:16.570
[we] call this
0:12:16.570,0:12:19.860
Programming like I have things that from when I was a child
0:12:20.380,0:12:27.150
you’re programmed, and this is the programming [that] he’s doing to alienate your children against you ah
0:12:28.870,0:12:30.460
so
0:12:30.460,0:12:32.460
You’re doing a lot of really good things
0:12:33.310,0:12:37.619
you have decided that you [are] not going to let this happen again and
0:12:38.230,0:12:42.360
And you’re going to help as many people as [you] can don’t tell us what you’re doing
0:12:43.240,0:12:49.769
Sure, so um I did quite a bit of volunteering with the Colorado coalition against domestic violence
0:12:49.770,0:12:56.730
I am on their survivor caucus with many other women including my husband and [in] Tracy
0:12:57.070,0:13:00.180
Um I also serve on their policy board
0:13:01.440,0:13:03.440
I’ve also in
0:13:04.090,0:13:06.090
Volunteer for other
0:13:06.580,0:13:08.580
organizations also, but I think my
0:13:09.520,0:13:11.500
my biggest is
0:13:11.500,0:13:13.980
being able to get into the state legislature and
0:13:14.790,0:13:16.790
to speak with
0:13:17.650,0:13:22.980
Colorado representatives as well as Colorado state senators and trying to Express to them
0:13:23.830,0:13:25.830
about the concerns of parental alienation
0:13:26.170,0:13:33.029
the biggest problem with parental alienation is it’s one of these terms that has been overused in the court system by
0:13:34.000,0:13:35.230
abusers
0:13:35.230,0:13:41.399
Because what happens is she gets custody of the children because he’s been abusive and now
0:13:41.560,0:13:44.699
Even though she may not have said anything to the children the [children]
0:13:45.580,0:13:49.530
The children don’t necessarily want to have a relationship with somebody who’s going to be mean to them
0:13:49.930,0:13:56.159
And so they’ve gone back to court saying I don’t have a relationship with my kids because my ex-wife
0:13:56.800,0:14:01.680
Who happened to be the victim of domestic violence is now turning my children against me
0:14:01.680,0:14:07.979
And so it’s going to become one of these terms that people a lot of professionals cringe at when they hear
0:14:08.230,0:14:09.490
Which is very unfortunate?
0:14:09.490,0:14:15.719
and I’ve had the [opportunity] to speak with other professionals and say you know why don’t we give [it] a different term and
0:14:16.900,0:14:20.370
The reality of it is is that you know you got to call it what it is
0:14:20.370,0:14:24.659
And this is what it is, and yes unfortunately has been extremely overused
0:14:26.110,0:14:31.740
But in those cases where it is such an extreme. There’s different levels of parental alienation
0:14:31.810,0:14:38.310
You know there’s the mild parental ation kind of medium level and then there’s the extreme and my case happens to be one of those
0:14:38.380,0:14:43.320
Extremes, but even just telling your children. You know what your dad’s a deadbeat because he’s not paying child support
0:14:43.660,0:14:47.610
You know parents need to be very careful about what [they] say to their [children] because they are
0:14:48.310,0:14:55.229
Very they’re sick to sponges. They take all this information in and it’s so easy to manipulate them into
0:14:55.750,0:15:00.209
Thinking what you want when in reality all they wanted to have two loving parents
0:15:00.760,0:15:07.830
[and] it doesn’t matter if he’s a deadbeat or if she’s a deadbeat, or it shouldn’t matter at all. What’s important?
0:15:07.830,0:15:12.270
Is that these children came into the world because two people apparently fell in love and yeah?
0:15:12.270,0:15:17.610
you couldn’t get along with each other and you got divorced now the adults and get over it right and
0:15:17.920,0:15:23.490
Do what’s best for your children, but a lot of people don’t see it [that] way. [no] it becomes a war and
0:15:24.400,0:15:29.559
Unfortunately the children end up becoming pawns in this more, and that’s exactly what happened to my children
0:15:30.140,0:15:32.289
and in some of the most extreme cases
0:15:32.839,0:15:34.640
like mine
0:15:34.640,0:15:39.819
I feel that it is another form of domestic violence, and it’s definitely a child abuse issue
0:15:39.820,0:15:45.609
And it’s to me the court systems are not helping you there. You know are you listening?
0:15:45.640,0:15:49.269
They aren’t educated. They don’t know about any of this and yet
0:15:49.269,0:15:54.578
They’re making decisions on people’s life and children’s life to me. That is like
0:15:55.279,0:15:59.049
That is the crime is that our judges and our?
0:15:59.570,0:16:06.459
Lawyers that are defending and trying to help us if they’re across the table from someone who was the abuser?
0:16:07.220,0:16:09.220
But has this story to tell
0:16:09.920,0:16:16.690
They’re not understanding all the facts don’t think it’s some kind of child services involved sometimes to help
0:16:18.110,0:16:24.039
Them but even even child services doesn’t totally understand a lot of this you would [think] that
0:16:25.670,0:16:28.390
You know the department of child and Family services
0:16:29.149,0:16:32.679
Would be educated would be [able] to understand domestic violence
0:16:32.680,0:16:38.229
But they don’t even understand some of the things that go on and in fact it was the department of human services
0:16:38.810,0:16:42.039
that gave custody to my children you know of my children to my
0:16:42.260,0:16:46.989
Ex-husband and they refused to look at the fact that he had a long [history] of domestic violence
0:16:46.990,0:16:49.359
He refused to look at the fact that he had for Dui
0:16:49.730,0:16:54.519
But because I had relapsed as a recovering [alcoholic] and openly admitted in court
0:16:54.620,0:17:01.239
[I] was obviously the evil parent because I had an issue plus. I was also in another abusive relationship
0:17:02.000,0:17:05.770
That wasn’t a healthy situation or family situation for my kids
0:17:05.990,0:17:09.579
And he was a much better parent than I was at the time
0:17:09.579,0:17:13.659
And so that’s basically what they said is that I was the one who was unhealthy
0:17:13.660,0:17:16.299
And they weren’t [looking] at all of the past issues
0:17:18.020,0:17:23.049
so there’s a lot more education and training that needs to be brought to the [attention] of
0:17:23.419,0:17:26.919
not only the judges but atTorneys and guardian enlightened and
0:17:27.500,0:17:32.439
social workers that are making these major life decisions for children and family so that
0:17:33.110,0:17:37.750
Families aren’t torn apart like this there are so many things that can be put in as precautionary
0:17:38.480,0:17:40.670
measures to ensure child safety
0:17:40.890,0:17:43.940
but it doesn’t necessarily [have] to come down to yanking a
0:17:44.310,0:17:47.600
Healthy parent out of their life or a loving parent out of their life
0:17:47.600,0:17:50.929
You [know] we all go through situations in our lives where we?
0:17:51.510,0:17:56.899
Struggle with certain things it doesn’t make us a bad parent it. Just means that we’re human, right
0:17:57.630,0:17:59.430
Really good
0:17:59.430,0:18:02.269
All right, well we’re going to do another video in a minute
0:18:02.300,0:18:08.060
we’re going to introduce Tom Caroline’s new husband Randy because I
0:18:08.400,0:18:11.930
Met him also through the coalition, and he’s a very special guy
0:18:11.940,0:18:16.130
[and] I want to bring his perspective into this
0:18:16.590,0:18:21.439
There anything last words that you might want to tell somebody that’s going through this
0:18:21.440,0:18:25.730
What’s your big piece of advice? What should they do to protect themselves?
0:18:26.730,0:18:29.240
protect yourself and protect your children I
0:18:31.350,0:18:37.639
Did a lot of things that I thought were in my children’s best interest like allowing them to have a relationship with their father
0:18:38.100,0:18:43.909
Which I still think is a good idea, but I put my guard down and I let my guard down don’t let your guard down
0:18:45.120,0:18:48.109
Perfect. Thank you, so much. My [dear] that’s it.